[This interview took place over a Facetime audio call last night. I spoke to Angela, with the aid of a translator, Louis. Angela responded in both English and German. I indicate the translated answers by adding [Louis] to the start of the text. When it's Louis speaking as himself, there is no bracket around his name. For the most part Angela could understand my questions. At times, she requested them in German and Louis, who is not 110% fluent in German, translated them with the aid of Google Translate.]
Angela is 63 and grew up in Cologne. She is the mother of my brother's good friend Cornelius. This interview was the first time we spoke. Compared to the other interviews, I had a hard time extracting her personal experiences. I'm not sure if they were lost in translation or if she simply chose to share her and her parents' recollections using general terms. Often Angela would focus on the societal climate. For example, when I asked, "Did your parents ever tell you what it was like when they were in school, learning about Nazi ideology?" She replied no, and then provided a description of the Great Depression to contextualise– and preface– people’s allegiance to Hitler, "No...There was high unemployment. A lot of people starving, struggling to make ends meet. And in this vacuum, that’s when Hitler came in, promising to make Germany great again, give you work...That’s why the Germans were so happy."
She emphasised several times that Germans didn't know about the Holocaust taking place. And in response to my rejoinder– “how about those openly carried-out policies, those prohibiting Germans from marrying Jews, or that took jobs away from Jews” – she said, "We have to remember it’s not just Germany, it was all of fascist Europe doing the same thing. You have to understand that not everyone was followers of Nazism. People were scared as well. If you didn’t follow the rules, you were also sent to prison, sent away. You had to, out of fear and also because everyone was doing it." Those two qualifiers there– that it was the norm, and that one's life rested precariously upon their obedience– sums up what I think Angela wanted to get across to me throughout the interview. That yes bad things happened– the allegiances, the normalisation of terror– but she would much rather focus on the context. Of course those socioeconomic settings that lay the foundation for monumental events are important to understand– that I can't deny. But that information is more widely available. I wanted to hear about how those shifts were internalised, how they were personally contextualised in her life.
Nevertheless, I discovered a fare bit from my conversation with Angela. Two interesting facts I learnt from this interview had to do with the rebuilding of Cologne. I had known that the city's reconstruction was a rapid, well-organised process, but last night I heard a humanising narrative of the master plan. Angela shared that going headfirst into reconstruction was how people dealt with their grief. Rebuilding the rubble made people feel whole; developing new thoroughfare kept them looking ahead. She described it as "German resilience". The second thing I learnt was that the first few years after the war, Nazi sympathisers were still in power (I'm presuming in the city council). It was only in the sixties that new leaders were elected in Cologne, coinciding with a new History curriculum that included finally education about the war. Angela said that at the age of 15, she read the Diary of Anne Frank in History class. This contrasts starkly to the experience of my other interviewee Andrea, who was born 6 years later. In her school in Munich, there was no mention of the Holocaust or of Jews. Germany didn’t have a national government till 1948 so cities managed their own rebuilding. This includes education policy and its role in shoring up collective awareness and reflection. This explains and is a function of the disparate experiences across Germany– different demographics, different politics, different priorities.
Angela was so kind to offer to introduce me to two of her friends. One is the grandson of Konrad Adenaur, first Chancellor of West Germany, who chairs the National Archives; the other is a Jewish university professor whose father engineered warplanes. I'm looking forward to getting these very different perspectives– one intimately tied to a political purview, the other playing multiple roles in the German moral universe.
I saw last night's interview with Angela as a sign that I need to learn how to improvise faster in order to keep my inquiry on track. I didn't get too many personal stories, but that in itself tells a lot.
(Transcript of Facetime Call, 3rd September, 2017; translated parts indicated as [Louis])
Kar-men:
Ok, now we are ready. So Angela you said you were born in 1954 and grew up in Cologne?
Angela:
Yes
Kar-men:
Could you describe your earliest memories learning about the war?
Angela:
[Louis] So, the first things she heard about the war was from her father. He fought in Russia and France for 8 years.
Kar-men:
Did your father have to go to prison after the war?
Angela:
Yes, he was prisoner in the war. In Russia, in Sankt Petersburg. It was the former St.Petersburg. And France.
Kar-men:
Did he ever talk about how he felt about fighting in the war?
Angela:
[Louis] So, obviously her family were not agreeing with the Nazis but all the young men were enlisted. So they had to. To fight for Germany.
Kar-men:
So was it mostly from your family that you learnt about the war? Did you hear about it in school and in church?
Angela:
In school and in family; in church a little bit. My father told a lot about the Jewish people that lived with them. But for the first few years, the History teachers would not talk about the war.
Kar-men:
When did the teachers start talking about the war to you?
Angela:
I think it was at the age of 15.
Kar-men:
And the things you learnt in school– were they similar to the ones you learnt from your family?
Angela:
Yes.
Kar-men:
I ask this because I wanted to know what the focus of that education was. The last person I spoke to said her school in Munich didn’t cover the Holocaust at all. I found that surprising. In school, did you learn about the different victims of the war?
Angela:
[Louis] Later, later. So only when she was 15, they started talking about the war and all the things about it. Because before that there were still people in politics that had been involved in politics during the Nazi rule so it was a little bit suppressed. It wasn’t really talked about openly.
Kar-men:
The people in politics– were they in the Nazi party?
Angela:
Yes
Kar-men:
So they didn’t have to go to prison?
Angela:
[Louis] So they were not really involved in a lot of decisions of the Holocaust but they fought for Germany and they still had, you know, the mindset. Maybe not directly linked to Nazism but they had some sympathy for them.
Kar-men:
What was the change in society that brought on the new leaders?
Angela:
[Louis] So what happened was obviously over time people started to ask questions. You know there was access to information, the press and old cassettes of old speeches. With all that information people started to ask what happened and who was responsible, etcetera. And that’s how it got ingrained in society.
Kar-men:
Who were the people asking questions? People that had lived through the war, young people–?
Angela:
Young people.
Kar-men:
So when you were growing up did society feel united or did you see a barrier between those that were in the Nazi party and others in society?
Angela:
Yes, uhh, they were not united.
Kar-men:
Cologne had such massive destruction and loss. Did you notice any strategies people used to deal with grief?
Angela:
Yes, you have to know that Cologne was quickly built up. They started to work; they started to build up; they started to build their business. It’s a kind of German..um..I don’t know the word–
Louis:
Resilience
Angela:
Ah yeah. Going forward yeah.
Kar-men:
How did your family feel about the British, the Americans, the Russians– people fighting on the other side?
Angela:
They were afraid of the Russians because when the Russian army was in, they destroyed, attacked the women and (continues in German).
[Louis] They were obviously scared of both but more so of the Russians because when they invaded Germany back, they left a lot of destruction. The Americans were seen more as the people who freed the Germans from the Nazis; the Russians more in a negative sense.
Angela:
And the Americans and the Russians divided Germany into two parts.
Kar-men:
So you personally didn’t see any of them as enemies?
Angela:
No because one side was Communism and one side was the democratic part.
Kar-men:
As a young kid, how did you feel when you learnt about your father having to go to prison after the war? How did you feel when you heard those stories?
Angela:
We were very sad because my father told us they were very hungry.
Kar-men:
When you heard about him going to prison, did you ever wonder about the things that happened and his role in the war?
Louis: She’s not talking about him going to prison after the war. She’s talking about him as a POW. (to Angela) I was explaining to her that your father didn’t go to prison as a prisoner but she was captured by the Russians.
Angela:
By the Russians and the French.
Kar-men:
So the people that were prisoners of war– they were not ever looked at as criminals?
Angela:
No, no, no.
Louis:
They were just enemy combattants.
Angela:
Yes. Yes, yes, (continues in German).
[Louis] She really wants you to know that a lot of people from Cologne also helped the Jews during the war. Helped hide them. Not everyone knew about the Holocaust and not everyone supported it.
Kar-men:
I read that the Catholic Church were against some Nazi policies like the euthanasia program–the killing of mentally disabled people– but they didn't actively oppose the Holocaust. When you were growing up, what narratives about the war did you hear in church?
Angela:
During the war, the Church didn’t say anything against the Holocaust. After many years they did. But during the Holocaust, the Church didn’t give any statement.
Kar-men:
Ok I’d like to hear more about how you learnt about the war in school. In school, how did they teach you to reflect on the different experiences during the war? What kind of things did you read?
Angela:
I read at school the Diary of Anne Frank. You know it?
Kar-men:
Yes, how did you feel when you read it? (Need to follow up for clarification of answer)
Kar-men:
Did they take you to any memorials?
Angela:
No. No, no. The memorials are in the newer times.
Kar-men:
I see. How about in the media, do you remember seeing things about the war on TV, in magazines–?
Angela:
Yes. TV. Do you know the TV series “As Far as My Feet Will Carry Me?” You should see it. I am sure it is also in English. This was the first show you could see.
Kar-men:
I will look it up. How did you feel when you watched this? (Will follow up for clarification of answer)
Kar-men:
Did you notice any denazification propaganda?
Angela:
Yes.
Kar-men:
Did your parents ever talk to you about what it was like to experience the denazification propaganda?
Angela:
Yes, they did. They were content.
Kar-men:
What kind of questions about the war did you have when you were a little kid; what kind of things did you wonder about?
Angela:
You heard “this man, or that man is a Nazi” (continues in German).
[Louis] It wasn’t that this person is a Nazi or that person is a Nazi. It wasn’t said so much in the open as there was a lot of shame going on.
Kar-men:
But you mentioned that there were still a lot of people from the Nazi party still in politics right?
Angela:
Yes, yes.
Kar-men:
The reason I wanted to have these conversations was because I wanted to understand what it was like for people to really believe in something and then adjust their whole ideology. So the people who really followed Hitler, for example, possibly having to adapt to a new worldview. Do you know anyone who experienced that?
Angela:
*Silence*
No. No I don’t know anybody. Because they didn’t talk about it.
Kar-men:
Did your parents ever tell you what it was like when they were in school, when they were learning about Nazi ideology?
Angela:
[Louis] Yeah so ok. Basically, your question was did they learn anything about Nazis in school right? The answer is no. Because before the Nazis basically there was, much like Europe, there was a depression in Germany. There was high unemployment. A lot of people starving, struggling to make ends meet. And in this vacuum, that’s when Hitler came in, promising to make Germany great again, give you work, and of course they apportioned blame to the Jews. Because at that time, the Jews were the successful ones, the intelligent people, the doctors, those who owned everything; they apportioned blame to them. That’s why the Germans were so happy. Because someone came and looked out for them, putting their interest first. But to say that– were they learning about nazism before? NO. Because it was more of a movement. When he came to power, then you have the whole propaganda, putting up monuments and the beginning of his end was starting the war. So beforehand they didn’t know about the war. Yes, they–
(Angela cuts in, in German)
[Louis] So no one knew about the Holocaust because when they were being taken away, people thought they were just being relocated to outside Germany to Poland, to wherever. And this was part of Hitler’s promise, his solution. They didn’t know they were going to get killed. So that’s why it wasn’t a really big thing then. It was only afterwards when they found out. During the time, people didn’t know.
(Angela cuts in, in German)
[Louis] If I understand that correctly, she can send you pictures of the war if you want.
Kar-men:
That would be great thanks! How old were your parents when the war started?
Angela:
My father was 18. He just finished school and then he went to France– had to go to France.
Kar-men:
So did they or your grandparents ever describe any specific memories of seeing Hitler rise to power, how they felt when they saw the propaganda, school programs, new racist policies like the Nuremberg laws?
Angela:
They were proud. They were proud to go for Germany, into the war. You understand what I mean? (Continues in German)
[Louis] Actually at the time, the native Germans were obviously very happy. How do you say, it’s kind of national pride. So actually at the beginning they were very happy to go to war for Germany, happy to put on a uniform and fight for their country. They didn’t think about consequences. More defending their country.
Kar-men:
I’m interested in the ideology shift. Because in the Weimar Republic, it was a strong democracy. So the definition of that ‘national pride’ changed. Did your parents and grandparents ever talk about what they thought about the new norms or laws in the years prior to the war?
Louis:
I think she answered that question. Because of the whole economic downturn, they needed someone to apportion blame. Because people were desperate.
Angela:
[Louis]Her parents were too young at that time to form any views. For example, her mother was 10 when the shift was happening. Her father was 14.
Kar-men:
And grandparents?
Angela:
[Louis] She doesn't know.
Kar-men:
Earlier in the interview, you said your parents were not followers of Hitler. They– your father– had to go to war because he was enlisted. Did he describe what he felt about Hitler and his ideology?
Angela:
No, no it was too dangerous.
Kar-men:
What was too dangerous?
Angela:
It was too dangerous to talk about their own thoughts.
Louis:
Because of the secret police.
Kar-men:
But did he talk to you about it?
Angela:
No he didn’t talk to me, no.
Kar-men:
Thank you Louis and thank you Angela. I just have a few more questions.
Angela:
Yes, I hope I can help you!
Kar-men:
Yes, you are helping me! My goal is to understand how people adapted to the major shifts in society from different personal experiences.
Angela:
[Louis] Obviously, during the whole time no one talked about what was happening because no one knew. No one knew what was happening in these concentration camps and etcetera. It was only afterwards when they were liberated by the Americans, that the whole population realized what was going on. Because during the whole time, they were just fed by Nazi lies, that they were going to be resettled somewhere. After when the Americans freed these camps that people started to see. And of course the first reactions people were really shocked and extremely sad that they were able to do this.
Kar-men:
There were still laws in society that prohibited people from marrying a Jew, that took away jobs from Jews; these things were visible in society, no?
Angela:
[Louis] So essentially yes there were all these laws but you have to understand that–
(Angela cuts in, in German)
[Louis] Obviously, we have to remember it’s not just Germany, it was all of fascist Europe doing the same thing. You have to understand that not everyone was followers of Nazism. People were scared as well. If you didn’t follow the rules, you were also sent to prison, sent away. You had to, out of fear and also because everyone was doing it.
Kar-men:
When you learnt about the war, was there a clear idea in your head who were the victims and who were the perpetrators?
Angela:
Yes.
Kar-men:
Who did you think of when you thought of the victims of the war?
Angela:
The victims were the Jewish people and all the thousands and thousands of young men who lost their lives– in Russia, in France.
Louis:
Millions I think.
Kar-men:
Growing up, was there education about race? Did your parents or teachers talk about race; what were those conversations like?
Angela:
[Louis] So they didn’t really talk about race so much except about the buildup to the war, there was emphasis on blond, blue eyes, and kids who were born from mothers with blond and blue eyes– they were considered superior. But afterwards, no, they didn’t talk about that. And before that, no, it was during the whole Nazi period.
Kar-men:
Did you know a lot of Jewish people growing up?
Angela:
Yes, yes. I have also Jewish friends who were living in Israel. Yeah. I can also give you a telephone number of an old Jewish man living in Berlin. If you would like to talk to him, he could tell you and tell you and tell you.
Kar-men:
That would be great. I would like that! Your answers are also valuable because you grew up shortly after the war and you’ve seen society change so much. Do you think kids today, your own children growing up– did they learn about the war differently from how you learnt about it?
Angela:
I think my kids learnt a lot from my father. He told them about his years in Russia and in France. I think they remember that in Christmas, he starts crying. He talked about his experience. I think now, I think children in school they learn but now I think it’s not a big subject.
Kar-men:
I think those are all my questions. I am going to research that interesting point about how there were people in the Nazi party still in power in Cologne. Am I understanding this correctly? Would you know how old you were when new people took over power?
Angela:
Early 60’s.
Kar-men:
That’s late!
Angela:
Some politicians (continues in German)
[Louis] She has lots of books of Cologne after the war, if you want. She said that yes it was late because people were concentrating on rebuilding first.
Kar-men:
Ok, thank you Angela. Your answers were very important to me.
Angela:
I talked to Cornelius and I said I am not the right person but Konrad Adenaur is the right person.
Kar-men:
Both of you are the right person. I'm happy I got to hear about your personal experiences.